Episode 60 - An Interview with Robert Sher
Speaker 1:
People of earth. We have come to upgrade your cosmic consciousness. DNA activation ready. Three, two, one.
Craig P. Anderson:
Hi, welcome to Q&A on Breakthrough Leadership. I'm Craig Anderson.
Lou Quinto:
And I'm Lou Quinto.
Craig P. Anderson:
Today, I'm excited to have another addition in our interview series. Lou, we are going to be talking to Rob Sher, who is a thought leader around mid-size companies, does a lot of research in that area. He's done some really interesting articles in Forbes lately around a very favorite topic of ours, company culture.
Lou Quinto:
I'm looking forward because we've done a lot on culture. And I hope with Rob, we'll explore how COVID and remote work is going to change culture, even those companies that have had what they call a great culture. Is this going to set a lot of people back and give people the opportunity to start from scratch maybe? I don't know.
Craig P. Anderson:
Absolutely. Well, in our ongoing quest to get third parties to come onto the show and validate all of our thinking is correct, we will now bring Rob onto the show and start talking about company culture. Rob, welcome to Q&A on Breakthrough Leadership.
Robert Sher:
Thanks. Happy to be here.
Craig P. Anderson:
We're glad to have you. Lou and I have done a lot of conversations around lots of the issues around leadership and company culture, and especially remote work and how all those are interplaying these days. And we read your pieces in Forbes around culture and thought it'd be a great idea to reach out to you and understand more about where you were coming from in some of those articles. So Lou is our resident scholar, so I'm going to kick it off to Lou to let him get us started.
Lou Quinto:
Rob, in the September Forbes publication that I read, and again, it's one of those things where the headline just pulled me in because we have talked about culture a lot. And Craig and I have also said on many occasions culture has been one of those things where a CEO or a leader will take the HR person and go do that culture thing. But the the headline was True Colors, and it was clearing the way for a new culture. Before I even got into it, I'm thinking to myself, what does he mean by a new culture? So could you expand a little bit on that?
Robert Sher:
Sure. So every company has a culture, whether you were intentional about it or not. Whether you decided to-
Craig P. Anderson:
I can't believe he used the word intentional. You did that just for Craig.
Robert Sher:
I did. You guys let me in the door.
Craig P. Anderson:
It's on now.
Robert Sher:
It's really true, Lou. And when you're a small company, it's like the CEO just exudes culture, and the seven people around him or her naturally fall into that culture. And then you grow into mid-size and you get other leaders. And so often, if you don't keep control of the culture, then you get a grumpy leader over there, and then the culture starts to get a little grumpy, and then this happens and so on. And so you end up with some culture. And then at some point, you may wake up and say, gosh, that is not what we want. That's not good for us. We want to either get back to our old culture, or maybe just talk with someone who took over a company from a longstanding old school founder who was very top down and a culture they wanted to get away from. And you say, okay, we have this aspirational idea. We want to get to that, the new culture, but it's not so easy.
Lou Quinto:
Right, right. Okay. Yeah. And particularly with these days, Rob, as you know, with the COVID and people working remotely, culture's changed in companies. Because it's now become almost individualized culture, where I think when we do get to that point and everybody getting back into the office together, I believe a lot of companies may have an opportunity, if they did not have a defined culture before, to actually create a culture that they're going to need moving forward. Do you agree? Have you found that out?
Robert Sher:
Culture, first of all, always takes managing. You're never done. Our culture is fine. We can forget about it for a while. No, never. It always needs managing. And maybe you managed it more or less when you're all together, but certainly there are more touch points. Maybe the elements of the culture you didn't like were more fixed because of that. But certainly in some businesses where people are now virtual, culture will be shifting, and it takes management. And that was one of the topics of the other article. And then certainly when we all come back together, and we will not all come back together. Companies more than ever will have some people who will be remote. And so now we've got to manage a new thing. People coming together. There's a lot of people, though, that have been hired and never worked in the company place. That was February.
Lou Quinto:
Oh, yeah. I've got a neighbor who was hired virtually and he's working out of his house for the last six months. He has never been to an office at all.
Robert Sher:
Right. And so there will be a lot of cultural management to do as some return to the workplace as well.
Craig P. Anderson:
And to go to the other article talking about keeping your culture strong. And you had the company there, HDL, who did the care package. And I've seen a lot of other companies doing some unique things. I've even seen one company providing tutoring for their employees' kids to help them out through this time of remote school, too, that's driving so much of this. What are some of things that companies should be thinking about to reinforce and build culture while we're still in this remote space?
Robert Sher:
I think first of all, the most important thing they have to do is view it all from the perspective of the employee. To really get inside their head and their skin. And I hope that they know their employees well enough to know this one has three little kids, this one has a health at risk person in the family, all of those things. Because if you really have true relationships with your people, then your hiring managers should know that level of information about those people. So with that in mind, we say, okay, what is Joe's experience while working from home and going in once a day, given what Joe has to manage? And what's the best outcome we can have for the business? Which includes a good outcome for Joe in terms of addressing his or her cultural needs.
Robert Sher:
So that switch, it's really hard for a lot of CEOs and a lot of managers. They're like, "Well, I need them to be fully productive and I need this and I need that." But if we go straight at it, you may just damage your relationship, damage the employee, and set yourself backwards. So I think that's the number one most important thing. And then given that, you say, okay, are people in general feeling a bit adrift? So do we need to touch them in some personal way? Is it a video touch? We all need more video now, right? Or do we send them something? Or do we have some phone calls old school? See, and I still do it that way. I got to change that.
Lou Quinto:
That's all right. I still pull up to people and I do this to roll down the window.
Robert Sher:
The hands of time. Dad, what do you mean the hands of time? So it's thinking through those touch points and then understanding how you deliver that. And it may be some really odd things nowadays.
Craig P. Anderson:
Rob, you said something, and it's something that Craig and I have talked about in previous episodes, particularly since COVID, but we've talked about empathy. And you mentioned a little bit about now that I know that Mary, she's taking care of her mother... Because we truly have learned more about our fellow employees because we literally come into their living rooms in some instance. And for some people truly, we have come into their living rooms because they don't have an office that they could set up, so we we've come into their living rooms. I think we've gotten to know our employees a lot better. But going back to that word empathy and culture, do you think moving forward, whenever this is going to end, who knows, or like you said, there will be people working virtually from now on. That's the way it is. But do you think cultures will have more empathy in them than they used to?
Robert Sher:
That's interesting. I think cultures should have more empathy. Empathy is a powerful thing. Empathy gives us the emotional ability to understand what someone else is going through so we can solve their problem as we solve our own. Ultimate win-win. With no empathy, how do you understand what a win looks like to them? So they always should've had more empathy. I guess where I'm stuck a little bit is that I think amazing cultures always cared about each other. They always had empathy for each other. And if I have empathy for your need for something and I come help you with that, then you feel indebted to try to help me with something, which might encourage you to know something about me so that we can help each other. It's a natural trade.
Robert Sher:
And so a wonderful culture, everyone is thinking about everyone around them. And if you might think that that would mean who's thinking about me? The answer would be everyone else is thinking about me. So I'll help my workmate with their Excel challenge because I'm an Excel wizard, if I were. And then they helped me writing my really tricky memo because they're really good at writing. And together, it's the same amount of effort, but a bigger result. That comes at its heart from empathy. And so I hope that when people come back together, that leaders will recognize that and not just say, "Well, now that you're back here, you shouldn't answer your phone or ever do a text or check on your aging mom because you're here to work." I hope it goes that direction, but it will take proactive leaders to make that be.
Lou Quinto:
Do you think that the next generation of leaders, I'll use the M word, the millennials, will help make that change come across a lot faster?
Robert Sher:
I don't know. I'll say, Lou, that everyone likes to say, "Oh, those millennials," and then, "Oh, those gen Zs," as though the boomers were never young. I don't believe wholeheartedly that, oh, millennials are so different, and gen Zs, they're just crazy. No, younger people tend to behave differently. And I'm not disputing that there's some generational change. But there is a journey to being empathetic leaders, to being servant leaders. I don't know that the millennials were born more as servant leaders. Some would argue that they're more focused on what they need and they aren't just patient about following rules if it's not really good for them. The best leaders that I know flip that around and say what's really good for everyone around me, whether they're above me on the org chart or below me, and they deliver a value? And so often, they get appreciated for that value and others help them. To me, that's how leaders become more powerful and do more good. And I don't know, are millennials naturally better at that? I'm not sure.
Lou Quinto:
Okay. All right. Honest answer.
Robert Sher:
What do you guys think?
Craig P. Anderson:
We've talked a lot about the millennials, and again, we try and refer to them as the next generation of leaders. But our view, I think, pretty consistently has been they're going to continue the trend. That's what we were already seeing. Towards more empathetic leadership, towards more integration. Not into people's lives, but at least with consideration to people's lives, and making more of a work-life balance focus to the extent we even can in a world where work-life balance used to mean you left the office at 5:00. Now, I think it's just a question of did you go do something from 9:00 to 11:00 in the morning and then work 9:00 to 11:00 at night, where it's all just so enmeshed, which has only accelerated lately. But we do think there's more focus on the person, at least in the companies that seem to be driving forward the most right now.
Lou Quinto:
Yeah. And it goes back, I think, Rob, to something that you said, is that you've got some of those people, the boomers, I'll raise my hand, who top down leadership, authority. Where I'm finding in my working with so many different clients is that this new generation of leaders, because let's face it, millennials, when most people, you mentioned millennials, you think of some young kid. Oldest millennial's 39 years old today, so they're on the verge, if not knocking on the door, of being a true leader within a company. In fact, in many instances, some of them have already taken over significant leadership positions. But I think from their perspective, what I'm finding... And that's why I love that word empathy. And I think the deficiency that so many companies had by not being empathetic in the past has truly been highlighted by this remote workforce since COVID has taken place. Because as I said, we are now in the homes of the people we work with. And that is so much more...
Lou Quinto:
You mentioned camaraderie. In fact, in one of your articles, you say that the sense of camaraderie doesn't transfer well over Zoom. And when I read that, I thought, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, we're not there. There's not that touch, shake hands. If someone's down, give him a hug or a pat on the back or something like that. But then I saw the other side of that too. And that's why I keep going back to we are in people's homes now. I remember early on with Zoom, it was like, are those his kids? You're looking over their shoulder and you're like, oh my God, those are the drapes they picked out for the house? So I think we're coming to know people over the past few months a lot better. And I think that has truly helped to solidify that empathetic leadership. So I'm going to drop it right there. But my feeling, and that's why I wanted to ask, was I think company cultures will have a lot more empathy in it.
Robert Sher:
Awesome.
Craig P. Anderson:
Excellent. Well, Rob, I know you do a lot of research work and a lot of work with mid-sized companies, and that's a big chunk of our audience. So we wondered what other work are you doing right now? I know you're doing a lot of research to help understand what's going on in that space. What's the latest?
Robert Sher:
So what's always puzzled me and what's always been of interest is how are mid-sized companies different than their small brethren startups versus very large firms? And so my last book focused on seven silent growth killers, things that tend to befall mid-sized companies, and are much more acute and dangerous than they are when they befall small and large. And that's got a lot of really good information.
Robert Sher:
And now we've flipped the research in the other direction and said, what are the things that really drive growth for mid-sized companies? And we've identified nine of them and we've fully researched the first three. And so we're in process of writing that book now, but we've got another six to go. And when we write, we always look for examples. Examples that prove a leading practice or idea works, or examples that prove it doesn't work, or ways that fail. And then from those real world examples, we then create our thought leadership. And we don't look for examples that, oh, I tried this last month and I'm so excited. All right. But if it hasn't worked yet, then that just doesn't count. So we look for things.
Robert Sher:
So I just talked to someone I met on LinkedIn who four years ago, put in a new ERP in a $15 million business, and got all the way down to product costing, and it saved him because he knew what he was losing money on and what he wasn't. It's a story about being truly data driven. And he's got at least two years of history after the implementation. That's going to be a nugget in growth driver number seven, which is about being data-driven. So we're always looking for mid-sized companies, call it 30 to 50 people on up to probably several thousand. But it's in that range, 10 to 15 million probably up to, for our research, 400 or 500 million, that have done something exceptional that's a leading practice. And then we interview them, we record that, and that becomes part of our thought leadership that we share.
Robert Sher:
And so the six areas that we're really hunting for now is sales and marketing innovation in mid-sized companies; market intelligence gathering, the discipline of going out and collecting information; strategic growth initiatives, whether it's spinoffs or acquisitions or other ways of growing other than inorganic. And then seven, eight, and nine is data-driven, using data at the next level to inform decisions; planning and governance for mid-sized businesses; and lastly, finance capability. So if anyone listening to this hears about a great mid-sized company that's really nailed one of those, we want to interview them. And those end up usually on Forbes or in the book.
Lou Quinto:
You said those are the six. What are the first three that you've got ready? I know people's one of them.
Robert Sher:
Yeah. So the whole category for the first three is called people. The three we focused on, and like I say, we're writing that now, one is recruiting. Still really hard. Second is developing your best people. How do we do that? And then third is teamwork. And that forms the first group around people. The second group of three was really around the market, and the third group is around execution.
Lou Quinto:
Okay. All right.
Craig P. Anderson:
That's great. Rob, if people do want to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to connect? We'll drop it at the bottom of the screen too, but how should they reach you?
Robert Sher:
The easiest way probably is go to our website, www.ceotoceo.biz. And there's a research tab there. And then from there, it's got all the contact information. So just raise your hand and become a part of our research community.
Craig P. Anderson:
Fantastic. Well, as you guys put together that book, we would love to have you back to tell us more, because people is something that we think is a crucial part to getting any company moving in the right direction and moving there quickly. So we'd love to hear more about that research as it comes together.
Robert Sher:
Fantastic. Glad to share it.
Craig P. Anderson:
Absolutely. Well, thanks for being part of Q&A on Breakthrough Leadership, and we will be in touch soon. Thanks a lot, Rob.
Robert Sher:
You're welcome.
Lou Quinto:
Thanks, Rob.
Lou Quinto:
Well, Craig, that was a great interview with Rob. I hope I didn't get too far onto the empathy topic. But it's still one of those things that I'm finding with the clients that I work with is good leaders, good culture, has a lot of empathy in it.
Lou Quinto:
So if you like our interview with Rob today, please go ahead and like it, share it, subscribe to Q&A on Breakthrough Leadership so that you are notified when the next episode is available. In addition to that, don't forget all of our episodes can be found on all of your favorite podcast platforms. So until next time, keep your hands washed, keep your distance. I'm Lou Quinto.
Craig P. Anderson:
And I'm Craig Anderson.